Thursday, April 26, 2007

Sex-Positive Pondering

Okay. I happened upon a post today which led to another and another. And I’m going to address them all and then some. So get some fair trade coffee (or whatever, I can’t see you), and tuck in. I started reading with a link in a round-up at Ms. Jared’s that was inspired by this article by Jessica Valenti that I'm probably the last to hear about.

But first of all, a little about me.

I think I’d be called a sex-positive feminist by rad-fems, but I’m not sure how well I fit that definition. I’ve been reading around and getting different ideas of what it really means. Personally, I prefer the sound of rad-fem. Sex-positive makes me think of HIV-positive. And, as Lauredhel points out, it sets up the opposing team as sex-negative, which, for me, paints a picture of nuns and eunichs, which really doesn’t fit the image of the rad-fems I’ve met on-line at all. What’s the opposite of rad-fem? Moderate feminism? Mod-fem sounds kinda cool, but that doesn’t really make sense either. And isn’t the opposite of the mods, the rockers?

And, of course, the whole thing sets us up in a false dichotomy that doesn’t allow for bridging or overlap which is just silly.

Lauredhel’s concerns with sex-positive feminism: “Any set of ideas that insists that I affirm my personal sexual availability every time I talk about my politics, as not even a footnote but a mandatory adjective, is not for me. What’s liberatory about this?”

And she goes on to use descriptors such as, “look-at-me priority of little black dress feminism” and “smooth-legged cheery L’Oreal-infested.”

See, that’s not it for me at all, and it doesn’t really seem to fit the other sex-positive feminist blogs I read here. I like debating with people without my sexiness being a distraction to the conversation. Luckily, that’s not usually an issue for me. I own a little black dress, but rarely have an occasion to wear it. But I’m not going to the staff Christmas party in a flannel shirt and jeans. I think it’s okay to wear the dress and discuss politics at the same time. And my legs are almost as hairy as my face, which is unadorned save for a stainless steel ring in my eyebrow. So if I’m sex-pos, I’m not the hot kind.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that, in my opinion at any rate. And that’s just it for me. I don’t think being carefully put-together and proud of it should exclude anyone from being taken seriously as a feminist. In fact, that seems like an extraordinarily anti-feminist sentiment.

Lauredhel’s got a good round of comments going. Amanda says what I would say, so I didn’t bother reiterating there. But do check it out.

She links Infinite Thought, who says of Valenti’s article, “Stripped of any internationalist and political quality, feminism becomes about as radical as a diamanté phone cover.”

She and Lauredhel are annoyed that Valenti brackets her many political concerns with talk of beauty image, housework, and good sex. In fact, to Infinite Thought, the mere mention of these personal issues at the beginning and end all but negates the entire middle section of the article. Apparently these are not valid feminist concerns.

But what about that whole “personal is political” thing from way back? Feminism can positively affect so many aspects of life that surely celebrating that a guy shares the second shift at home is important fodder for feminist discourse. As Germaine Greer says in The Whole Woman, “The personal is still political. The milliennial feminist has to be aware that oppression exists itself in and through her most intimate relationships, beginning with the most intimate, her relationship with her body.”

It’s important to the existence of feminism to maintain an awareness that our personal life is ruled by political forces and that the way we live life is a political statement in itself. The fact that my guy has completely taken over the cooking in the house is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. It tells me that feminism is working, a bit anyway. Something shifted just enough within our culture and/or within myself to get more equity in household management.

So how am I sex-positive?

I’m not about being sexy – although I do quite enjoy my body and all it can do. And I’m not into a wide variety of sexual practices. I’m pretty vanilla. And I don’t like watching porn at all. But I do want to stop the infringement of freedom on others which includes being anti-censorship, or, as some would have it, pro-porn.

Before anyone shouts out, “What about the freedom of women coerced into producing porn,” let me say that I also hope we can stop any coercion in any workplace everywhere. I know many jobs in which people are forced to do harmful work they don’t want to do, jobs that endanger their lives without their full knowledge, consent, or understanding of the risks, but I do believe some porn is made with the full consent of the participants.

I was thinking back to the first time I learned of the sex-pos/rad-fem distinction, and it was at Belledame’s place. Twisty had asked, who hasn’t been forced, shamed, guilted, or brainwashed into fucking someone we didn’t want to fuck? There was an implication that if someone asks for sex from you, it can be the same as being raped because women are conditioned to say “yes.” And Belledame attempted some statistical investigation with the question, “Have you been pressured to make out with your gal pal for the benefit of a drooling hetboy?” And I replied, “I’m stuck on the word ‘pressured’.”

The issue for me is, whose responsibility is it if someone bows to pressure – not force or coercion, but pressure. If I ask a favour somewhat forcefully, and you say “yes,” don’t whine later that I made you do it. I expect people I interact with to have the ability to say “no” or to take responsibility for their own inability to speak up unless they're young children. I refuse to accept that the way I ask (without the use of force or coersion) exonerates someone from accountability for the outcome of their own choice to comply with my request. And I take responsibility for my choices too. But I can’t imagine being pressured or shamed or guilted into sex. I say “no” quite easily. There’s plenty of fish out there; no sense wasting a moment with a slippery flounder that smells funny.

And this is where I really break with most rad-fems. I believe we’re free agents able to make our own decisions in life, and responsible for the outcome of our choices. I think it’s demeaning to view women as unable to make choices because of patriarchy. And I think it’s condescending to insist all women who enjoy rough sex or pornography are necessarily sucked into the machine created by male desire. I reject the notion that women are automatons or just too weak to find their own voice. We’re better than that, dammit.

My personal boundary around porn is that no guy of mine can choose porn instead of me, or instead of dishes, childcare, movie night, etc. It’s the same policy I have around fishing, poker, sports, alcohol/drug use, or work. Yup, I think porn-viewing can be habit-forming and even physically addictive, and I think sport-watching can too. But in the context of a loving relationship, I have to come first, or second only to the kids. That’s just a rule that works well for me. Break it, and you’re gone.

When I went away for a weekend, I left behind a Maxim tucked into the covers on my side of the bed. I masturbate to images in my head instead of porn because my imagination is sufficient (and, perhaps, exceptional); so, while in particular cases it can be harmful to relationships, it’s not necessarily harmful. Sports, fishing, work, drinking, poker – they all have the potential for destroying a marriage, but the problem isn’t in the activity, but in the abuse of the activity at the expense of the relationship.

Okay, so I’m pro-porn - as much as I’m pro-sports anyway (which I loathe). But it’s out of a sense freedom of choice for as many people as possible with as little harm as possible to anyone; it’s not to impress the guys (as some imply here and there). I have an imperative existential quest for authenticity which insists on radical free will and personal responsibility for our choices. My feminism is as inclusive as possible. I’m baffled by attempts to exclude anyone who has feminist concerns with body image or housework equity, but I’d never throw the baby out with the bathwater. There are some important ideas out there that need to be heard, even if I don’t agree with them.

23 comments:

kactus said...

this is a great post, Sage, and I think speaks to the ambivalence many of us feel, when we think we have to choose sides. Sex pos or anti-sex? Isn't there a middle ground?

ms. jared said...

for what it's worth, i don't think that most feminists "exclude anyone who has feminist concerns with body image or housework equity" or throw them out with the bathwater. like you, i think lots of us agree on lots of stuff and lots of us disagree on lots of stuff. we're all individuals with individual life experiences so we all see things differently and different things have more importance to us.

i have seen all sorts of feminists saying what is or is not feminist, but i haven't seen a lot of people saying WHO is or is not feminist. the only time i usually see that is when one feminist is offended by something another feminist (usually twisty ;-) says and they react by saying, "if that's feminism then i don't want it!" so the way i see it, lots of feminists excuse themselves from feminism, or threaten to anyway, more than feminists kick anyone out of the club.

i read lots of stuff i agree with and lots of stuff i disagree with and usually when i read stuff i disagree with i turn into "the dude" in "the big lebowski" and think to myself, "that's just your opinion, man!"

happy weekend and thanks for the link!

Dan L-K said...

Well, as you know, Bob, "radical" in this sense doesn't mean "as opposed to moderate."

And of course, you're right - it's not a binary. One ought, in theory, be able to be a sex-positive radical feminist. I imagine such beings do exist, though I've never to my knowledge seen one in the wild.

I suspect (with my armchair outsider's perspective, which you should take for what it's worth) that the problem of the philosophy of radical feminism is similar in some ways to the problem of libertarianism: it gives you a sort of limited lens through which to look at everything. Which is not to say that there aren't many sane and reasonable radfems just as there are many sane and reasonable libertarians; but I do think the best of both of them have tempered the hardline of the philosophy by balancing it with other things. And both have a tendency, at the loonier end, to produce people to whom everything looks like a damn nail.

As for Any set of ideas that insists that I affirm my personal sexual availability every time I talk about my politics, as not even a footnote but a mandatory adjective... well, that's a statement absolutely jaw-dropping in its ignorance and mischaracterization.

Lauredhel said...

A little context might be useful with some of the quotes you've pulled out.

For example, "smooth-legged cheery L’Oreal-infested” was playing with the direct opposite of Valenti's negative mischaracterisation of feminists as "miserable and hairy". It was a rhetorical device: temporarily buying into the binary in order to argue against it. (L'Oreal just sneaked in there because I'm annoyed at them going evil with the Nestle buyout.)

I totally agree with you that the personal is political, and that this idea is one of the cornerstones of feminism. Instead of saying this, Valenti appears to denigrate "political analysis" as something her audience must find boring and irrelevant: "You don’t need to get bogged down in political analysis to know that feminism is still necessary". I think she's doing her audience a disservice with that assumption.

Amanda said what you would say - and Brooklynite beat me to the reply.

My key questions were these: "Why is one of the biggest divisions in feminism all about sex? Why are we categorising women using sexual attitudes as a primary descriptor? Whose hands are we playing into by maintaining this as our focus?"

Sage said...

Ms. Jared - I agree that most feminists don't exclude people based on their choice of topic, but Infinite Thought, in particular, seems to be writing off the article as completely apolitical because of the inclusion of some less radical topics. I don't mean to imply this is what all feminists do, but that this is something we should all be careful to avoid.

Lauredhel - "Why is one of the biggest divisions in feminism all about sex?"

I've written elsewhere why I love talking with feminists as opposed to non-feminists. That division is crystal clear to me. Some people just aren't awake or aware in the world, and it colours every conversation we try to have.

Within feminisms, I see a few divisions, and they all, sort of, relate to sex. One is the abortion issue - is it about the mom's rights or the fetus'. The other is the porn issue - is it about the right to work any job or the right to abolish jobs perceived as inherently exploitative. And a third, the one I personally think is the stupidest (yes, I said stupidest) way to divide people - is it about the right to dress how I want or the right to be free from the shackles of patriarchy and understand that I have no real ability to see choices in this world.

Something like that.

I'm fascinated to no end with these issues because I really see both sides of each of them. It's taken a lot of writing to figure out precisely where I sit and why.

Back to your questions - I'm not sure there's anything subversive about why we divide like this. I do think focusing on our difference can slow us down when it comes to battling injustices (like fighting for stronger sentencing around violence against women - another issue which, in itself, also sparks debate among feminists). But I also think good solid debating can clarify the issues and teach us all a thing or two.

Maybe the divisions are around sex because a big part of the feminist struggle is around protecting ourselves sexually (including reproductive rights). It's just the area of primary concern, so we spend our time arguing over the best way to ensure safety, and the kinds of choices we want available to us. I don't think we'll all ever agree, but it's quite a learning process in the meantime.

AFM said...

Sex is where the patriarchy approves or disapproves of us. Sex is how it classifies us. "Is Hilary "feminine" enough today? OR TOO feminie? Is she the slut or the madonna? " It is also a HUGE human drive! And when you want the opposite sex because of that drive and the opposite sex is also the oppressor, well it's a huge portion of the dialoge. How do I get what I want without compromising myself? The divisions are around sex because the problem is ABOUT OUR SEXUAL ORGANS. If you have a penis or a vagina and what you are sposed to act like accordingly.

As these conversatiosn progress I find I want definitions...What = Radical Feminst? What = Sex Positive?

I find I fit into all of the above as I define them. I am sex positive. I love having it when I want to have it. I do not shave anything, dress up anything or display anything to get it. Getting male APPROVAL is not my goal. And in almost all other areas of my life I'm pretty male gendered. Work in computers, Run my own crap, etc.

One of the statements you made that I have a deep issue with is "And I don’t like watching porn at all. But I do want to stop the infringement of freedom on others which includes being anti-censorship, or, as some would have it, pro-porn."

It's a great idea, as a way to be "fair," but it's not truly seeing the situation. Not only are those women in porn not truly giving clear consent due to drugs and a room full of manly pressure but the porn industry GROWS ON HUMILIATION SEX. You never see actual female orgasms in porn. You do see facial come shots, hear "suck it bitch" and other worse items. THIS IS ALMOST ALL OF THE PORN OUT THERE THESE DAYS! Men are watching vidoes teaching them this is how to be men in sex.

To qualify it with " some porn is made with the full consent of the participants." seems a head in the sand approach. Technically most porn is made with full consent, including Girls Gone Wild, and it's teaching men this is how we like it.

It is a problem for ALL woman, as well as continues the slut vs madonna dicotomy.

It's a great idea in theory. "I'm against censorship!" but in practice it harms us all. Do we change it by banning it? I doubt it. Bans don't work but ignoring it as a freedom of speech issue is only going to hurt.

Finally (sorry for how long, didn't realize how much I had to say) Valenti's book is for YOUNG WOMEN!!! Think about yourself at 14 to 20. How deep in the patriarchical thinking were you? I identify deeply with her statements on what she was like then. And my feminism also grew with the steps I took/take. My 36 year old feminism looks a LOT different than the 12 year old feminism I argued with my grandfather about, I could have used a beginners book myself, to understand that the word feminism wasn't something to be abhorred but that wouldn't threaten my then identity as a PatriarchyBorg.

AFM said...

A rad fems analysis of her porn spam http://stormcloud.wordpress.com/2006/12/26/all-i-got-in-my-xmas-hamper-was-a-shitload-of-spam/

belledame222 said...

Personally I'm beginning to loathe the sound of "sex positive" simply because it's giving me a sort of twee "up with people!" kind of feel; and did i mention i'm sick to frigging death of the whole Eternal Saga?

Having said that, it's worth remembering that in fact "sex positive" feminism -is- a splintering off from radical feminism. and the distinction was not originally meant to defend then-nonexistent tropes like "raunch culture" and so forth; actually in fact it was originally a split between factions of -lesbian- feminism. Read Dorothy Allison on the Barnard conference sometime (it's in her anthology "Skin"). Or Amber Hollibaugh. It was the return of the repressed: butch/femme, hot, nasty, "dirty" sex, sex that came from the gut and the gonads and the heart, not packed neatly into yet another theory of what women -should- be, what they -should- want.

It also was a breaking point for women who realized they simply didn't identify with the way the whole thing was being broken down--kinky women, yes, Pat (then female) Califia took a lot of heat back then and still does; women who originally were great fans of Dworkin but took her analysis of porn in a different direction--Susie Bright; sex workers who not only "consent" to the work but find the path an actual calling, a healing path, even: Carol Queen, Scarlot Harlot, Annie Sprinkle.

What's become of it now--well, look: you've heard the term "commodify your dissent," yes? The law of The Bottom Line means that sooner or later, anything that isn't rejected outright will become smoothed out and assimilated in its least threatening forms at the most mainstream level. Riot Grrls-->Spice Girls--->Powerpuff Girls. Early hiphop-->50 Cent; Public Enemy-->"Flava of Love." The peace movement-->"flower power" lunchboxes. "Sex, drugs and rocknroll"-->the Partridge Family. And so on, and so on, and so on.

and radical feminism, may i say, also becomes rather more palatable to the masses when it's primarily focused on the ev0l p0rn and other marginalized groups (i.e. transgendered folk) and that awful raunch culture and our own navels (with or without cutesy "sparkle" piercings or other stars on our bellies), than when it's talking about deep structural inequities, intersections between race and class and sexuality and gender, and so on. truthfully i think for the most part socialist feminism has picked up that torch, and while i don't consider myself a socialist feminist, i tend to take them more seriously these days.

belledame222 said...

(also see: transnational feminism, WOC feminism, feminisms primarily originating in places outside the Anglophone countries that i don't even know if they have specific denominations, but the focii, as i'm seeing it, often tends to be rather different).

Trinity said...

For me, "sex positive" means it's important to fight for women whose sexuality doesn't fit the standard "box" and is seen as threatening. It is important to create a world in which their choices are respected, but even better is a world where their sexuality is valued and appreciated. We live in a world where their sexuality is devalued and men's sexuality is valorized. I am sex-positive because I don't believe we weill be free until our voices are heard not only when we rail against things more "important" than sex (yeah, right) but when our sexualities -- a deep part of who almost everyone is -- are respected as well.

To hear "sex-positive" called frivolous frankly drives me nuts. If someone doesn't embrace what I stand for, fine, but kshe should know what that is before calling me frivolous.

Trinity said...

ESPECIALLY given that a big part of the patriarchy's control over us is sexual. How can we end patriarchy if we don't fight that tooth and nail?

belledame222 said...

yeah, agreed. and for all that it makes my teeth ache, i keep to "sex positive" because i can't think of an alternative that really suits.

patriarchal cultures, as we know them, are by and large sex-negative. Sex-negative and misogynistic (and homophobic) aren't totally synonymous, but they very much go hand in hand and overlap.

Octogalore said...

A great post.

"It’s important to the existence of feminism to maintain an awareness that our personal life is ruled by political forces and that the way we live life is a political statement in itself. The fact that my guy has completely taken over the cooking in the house is a BIG FUCKING DEAL. It tells me that feminism is working, a bit anyway. Something shifted just enough within our culture and/or within myself to get more equity in household management."

Agree. I think, while acknowleging the overall context, the personal is the place to start. You created a situation in which you had the leverage to command equality, first and foremost. There are also societal issues that helped move your situation forward, but your experience is one that can be built on.

Agree with Sage, Belle, Trin that sexuality is a key divide among feminists of different flavors, and also part of the patriarchy's arsenal. So feminist definitions based around sex don't bother me.

tobias said...

Sage,

"And this is where I really break with most rad-fems. I believe we’re free agents able to make our own decisions in life, and responsible for the outcome of our choices. I think it’s demeaning to view women as unable to make choices because of patriarchy."

This is what I've always tried to understand and never managed to. In particular because the hypothesis that women cannot act as rational agents of their own free will because of patriarchy necessarily implies that feminist activism of whichever kind isn't a free decision either, at least as far female feminists are concerned. It's logically self-destructive.

Btw, for me, the "sex-negative" element always was the view that sexuality is primarily a group power/political issue and not a matter of personal likes or dislikes. It usually seems to go together with the (apparent) belief that all sexuality is culturally constructed and thus a dependent, not even partly an independent variable in human behavior.

sarah said...

Hi Sage
I found your blog, because you linked to my blog. Thanks. Yours is so cool. I really relate to it! This post on guilt is amazing. Originally when I started trying not to make any garbage, I said I was going to wear every piece of garbage I accumulated, like a hair shirt. My friends convinced me not too, because I harbour enough guilt already. I agree with you that some guilt is good though. Like everything, the trick is in finding the balance. I'm quite an extreme person, so that's always the trick for me.
I also really like the mustache one. I always thought it would be cool to be a bearded lady, until I started noticing dark hairs on my chin. I too, pluck them, but wonder what would happen if I didn't. Maybe we should start a Ms. Mustache club?

Cassandra Says said...

We always end up talking about sex because it's important, as has been stated. If about 90 % of women are hetero as is usually claimed, and there is a power imblance between women and men, then of course we're going to end up talking about sex. It's inevitable.
I hate the term sex positive because I find many of the main people usually associated with it irritating (Annie Sprinkle, Susie Bright). I've yet to see a better term, though, and as Belle said the term originally came about as a reaction to trends within feminism that some feminists really did feel were anti-sex, or at least anti the kind of sex they enjoyed. This discussion between different schools of feminist thought would go a lot better if any woman who said "a lot of the theory I'm reading makes me feel wierd and guilty for wanting what I want in bed, and I think that may be a real problem for the movement" wasn't immediately shouted down and told that she was supporting "using MRA crap to bash feminism" - this actually happened to me.
About this quote..,"Any set of ideas that insists that I affirm my personal sexual availability every time I talk about my politics, as not even a footnote but a mandatory adjective"
Define "sexual avaliability". I don't think "positive" means "avaliable". I'm (reluctantly, until a better term comes along) describing myself as sex-positive but I'm not remotely avaliable, at least in terms of what the word avaliable usually means in that context.

Cassandra Says said...

Also, I'm aware that talking about appearance-related stuff ans sex is considered apolitical by some, but since when is housework not a feminist issue?

belledame222 said...

Sprinkle -is- annoying; but what do you have against Bright?

voyou said...

I think your point about the difficulty radical feminism has in accounting for women's agency is a good one. It's odd, because radical feminism has often of course been a great incitement to and support of political action by women; but there seems to be a tension there with their theory. I'd like to try and think this through, when I get some time to do so.

Also, as you linked to infinite thought's piece, you might be interested in her recent post on "a humanist pornography."

Sage said...

Tobias said, "This is what I've always tried to understand and never managed to. In particular because the hypothesis that women cannot act as rational agents of their own free will because of patriarchy necessarily implies that feminist activism of whichever kind isn't a free decision either, at least as far female feminists are concerned. It's logically self-destructive."

I agree completely. I wrote about it more here and here when I first started blogging.

Hey Sarah.

Cassandra, I don't equate positive with available at all, and it makes me nuts when there's an implication, subtle or otherwise, that I enjoy sex just to please men. WTF? Do people who make that type of argument all hate sex so much that the only reason they'd do it is to procreate or because they've sold out?

voyou, I appreciate much of what radical feminism has done, but there's just this one major issue I have about freedom and free will and all.

Iamcuriousblue said...

AFM said:

"You never see actual female orgasms in porn. You do see facial come shots, hear "suck it bitch" and other worse items. THIS IS ALMOST ALL OF THE PORN OUT THERE THESE DAYS! Men are watching vidoes teaching them this is how to be men in sex."

Coming to this thread late, I realize, but this has to be addressed. Where do these blanket statements about porn come from? (And for that matter, blanket statements about men and what they learn in porn.) Especially coming from people who probably haven't even watched much porn outside of a radfem horror slideshow.

Never see real female orgasms in porn? I suppose the sticking point is "real" – not being in the actresses body, I can't say whether or not I've ever seen a real female orgasm in porn. I've seen some realistic ones, though, that might very well have been real.

I've seen a lot of porn with beautiful shot, joyful sex, just like I've see a lot of formulaic obviously-fake porn sex. Making blanket statements about porn is like making a blanket negative judgment about pop music based on how godawful 98% of what gets played on the radio is.

And "what men learn from porn"? I'm sorry, lady, but how the hell do you know what's going on in men's heads? Have you even talked with many men about this? As opposed to talk at them?

Anonymous said...

THE ISSUE IS NOT SEX.

ALL the feminists I have ever known are pro-sex or sex-positive if you will.

The issue is about prostitution and porn which involves SELLING SEX.

The term sex-positive was cooked up by pimps, pornographers, and prostitutes who want to justify their choices, appear hip, and drag more women into their tragic world.

It's a marketing term.

Sage said...

Curious Blue - thanks for the comment. When I did my masters, I took a course in philosophy of porn and watched way more porn that I ever wanted to. It was certainly an education! And I would agree, that there is such a variety out there, it's not something that can be pigeon-holed quite so precisely.

Anon - (first of all - please make up a name, any name, to identify yourself from other people calling themselves "anon")

I think "sex-pos" is used to differentiate from people who are against any violence within sex - bondage, S&M, dominating, etc. It's not just about porn and prostitution and selling bodies, but about what people choose to do in intimate relationships behind closed doors.

It's not primarily for marketing purposes, if at all, but, I think, a way to shout-out to others that their way of life is cool with us. We won't judge you. Come on and sit a spell! Let's really talk.